Kawai K1, K4 and K4R

Instruments
21

Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated. Will test it tonight.
Things like the release velocity and the AM may indeed by the missing info I needed.

As for muting: if a source is muted upfront on the K4 itself, it cannot be unmuted remotely by the E1; there is no parameter for it. If I silence a source on the E1 , the K4R indeed mutes.

I also found discrepancies between the sysex data and the parameters as held by the K4. The sysEx does not allways contain the correcte source level and source mute data. However it might be something scrambled on my own synth. I’ll need to check if by writing over a patch that glitch gets resolved. Perhaps that muting behaviour is from the same root cause…

22

I can confirm this now on my K4. As you say, with recalled patches, mutes made on the K4 front panel, i.e. ‘real’ mutes, are not displayed or unmuted by the E1.
Volume zero mutes made by the E1, showing as mutes on the K4 indicators, but not real mutes, are stored and recalled correctly, and can be unmuted by the E1.

Maybe we need a PC script that converts and saves K4 sysex banks, changing ‘real’ mutes to E1 compatible volume zero mutes?

23

yep, worth a try, but not a path I will dare to take :slight_smile:

By the way V3 now has the changed names as you suggested. On to V4 with Multi settings …

24

Thanks, yes, I did see the patch names being displayed in the corner. It makes a big difference.

25

There is a small error in the vibrato section. It features a control for vibrato delay, but the K4 has no such parameter. The editor control is a clone of the auto-bend time parameter, and adjusting either one will cause both to change.

26

Yest, that’s correct, but it’s on purpose: On the K4R the auto-bend time parameter serves simultaneously as a vibrato delay. Instead of having to memorize that, I chose to show the parameter twice ; named differently, so it becomes obvious it serves those two purposes.
Isn’t it the same on the K4?

27

Sorry, yes, you are right. It does do that, I have a K4r also. I should have looked at the auto-bend manual section where it describes the dual function of auto-bend time.

1 Like
28

The K4(/R), notwithstanding its own limitations, does sound rather good, no ?

29

Yes, it sounds really nice! This is something I made just now, after adding vibrato delay.
RingMoogV3.syx (140 Bytes)

And a bass/oldschool patch made yesterday.
Dooww-bass.syx (140 Bytes)

1 Like
30

I have finally got snapshots saving and recalling correctly on the E1, with the K4r editor at least. :slight_smile: It saves snapshots with the names A0, A1…
Is it possible for it to save using the K4r patch name instead, or do I need to use the snapshot editor to add names afterwards?

31

KAWAI K4R/K4 NIG with patch parsing and multi save - V4

by New Ignis

January 2025

600×202 14.1 KB

V4 = Next update for the K4 / K4R

I’ve been able to add a Multi page in this V4, where you can:

  • retrieve Multi’s,
  • change Multi’s (be aware the system must reconstruct the full sysex dump, so it’s not as fast as a simple parameter change)
  • save Multi’s
  • You can also go back to the Single pages for the currently shown section patch using the ‘Go to Patch’ button.

image
image553×336 22.2 KB

2 Likes
33

The multi page works well so far, and is already useful because ‘layered’ multis all seem to use channels 2,3,4 with the different sections, when they should all be set to the same channel. It is quicker now to set the sections to channel 11 and resave so it plays correctly the next time.

I’m a bit confused as to what is possible with the ‘go to patch’ button. It shows the Single editor pages for the assigned section patch, but the K4r appears, from the sound being produced, to remain in Multi mode. To edit the single patch, would one have to then press the ‘select’ button to change the K4r back to single mode? Or is it possible to edit single patches whilst still in multi mode, and hearing them in context?

When using the section NR control, could the editor be made to show the assigned patch name as well as the memory location?

1 Like
34

I wasn’t aware of that. Let me check !

That’s a bit complicated, it would mean first dumping all the patches of the K4 adnd extracting all names out of it. It would be feasable though, but it would be very complex to guarantee it is correct at all times, when you start saving patch changes, for the simple reason MIDI external gear likne the E1 cannot be made aware you are changing patches on the K4. If you can live with that, I’ll give it a shot (after implementing the 32 output slots for the K4R).

35

Can you guide me to reproduce this ? My K4R keeps saying “DATA DUMP COMPLETED” so it’s not clear what mode it is actually in.
This being said, when you press the Go To Patch button, it does send a Program change to move it to single mode… So you should not have to press any button on the K4R.

function retrievePatch(valueObject, value)
  if value == 0 then return end
  local progNum = parameterMap.get (deviceId, PT_VIRTUAL, 1901) -- progNum ranges 0 - 63 from section
  midi.sendSysex (devPort, {0x40, channel-1, 0x30, 0x00, 0x04, 0x00, bank*2}) -- choose internal or external
  midi.sendProgramChange(devPort, channel, progNum)
  midi.onProgramChange(midiInput,channel,progNum,1)
end

I’ve tried this, and it worked to a certain degree but I didn’t look into it what exactly the behaviour is of the logic inside the unit. It did change patches but not always the one intended…

36

I think I have figured out what is happening, now using a different stacked multi. Before, the multi used had patches that themselves sounded like a stacked multi, and gave the impression it was still somehow in Multi mode. But, also the GO TO PATCH button does not always work, leaving the multi still sounding.

In a nutshell, the ‘GO TO PATCH’ button will change the K4r mode back to Single, and will send the parameters for the section patch, and that patch can be heard. But it does not change the selected Single mode patch location to that of the section patch. This is confirmed by pressing the Single button which reloads the patch at the last selected location, a different one to that of the section assigned patch.

This is exactly what happened in detail:

The DATA DUMP COMPLETED message is a real pain, but by pressing Single or Multi the following happens:
With the editor, select multi MID-5, ‘Stack 4’, in the factory bank.
Press Multi on the K4r to dismiss the DATA DUMP message.
Using the editor, change all the used sections, 1-5, to channel 11 and save the multi.
All the five sections will play together.
Use the Section NR control to select section 5, which has assigned SIA-6, ‘FolkGuitar’.
Press the GO TO PATCH button.
The K4r displays ‘DATA DUMP COMPLETED’.
The FolkGuitar patch can be heard in isolation.
To dismiss the DATA DUMP message:
If the Multi button is press the unit returns to the Stack 4 multi patch, and plays it.
If the the Single button is pressed instead, the last patch used in single mode is recalled.
In my case this is SIA-1 OceanWatch. The sound of FolkGuitar is replaced with that of OceanWatch.

Instead of immediately pressing the Single button to dismiss ‘DATA DUMP’, on the editor, which will now be on the Performance page, press the ‘Select’ button two times. One time does not work.
Now press the Single button to dismiss ‘DATA DUMP’.
FolkGuitar is the selected patch and plays properly.
I find it plays differently, like a chorus effect has been removed. Straight after pressing GO TO PATCH it has a chorus/phaser type sound.

The GO TO PATCH button does not work 100% of the time. Sometimes the multi still sounds, and that may have been confusing me as well. In this case, go back to the Multi page and press it again. It will usually work the second time.

1 Like
37

I’m leaning towards it not being possible, and likely to cause chaos if tried! This is not a problem, as it is far easier on the brain to keep using Single mode.

If the GO TO PATCH button is used, changing the K4r mode to Single, will unsaved edits to the multi be lost? Going back to Multi mode would recall the saved version. Does the editor need a warning prompt to save an edited multi first?

If you mean a ‘sync’ button that requests the bank, and it is up to the user to keep the editor synced after writing patches, I’m fine with that. Thank you.

38

Well, I’m at my final version now, at least from a functionality point of view
(I don’t intend to use the K4 for drums).

In version 5 , I’ve adding the following:

  • a program change is resent after a sysex dump, so now the name of the patch /multi should appear on the screen, making it easier to monitor the Kawai and check if the 'Go To Patch 'works.
  • at start and every time you change memory between Internal and External, the E1 will request a block single data dump, so it can load and display the 64 patch names in the Multi page
  • a new page have been added which controls the output settings (the 8 submix pans) of a K4R. It doesn’t show the effects of a K4, but you should be able to use it for K4 as well, as I don’t throw away the other effects settings upon saving. However I can’t test this.
  • page shortcuts are foreseen between Performance, Multi and Output pages.

The memory of a loaded Multi is not wiped when you go back to a Single page. But the memory of a Single page will not be entirely correct just after you loaded a Multi. That is why I make the patch name disappear in the lower right corner.

https://app.electra.one/preset/Jpodu3DyvqqxFCkNfHTm

KAWAI K4R/K4 with patch parsing and multi save - V5

by New Ignis

January 2025

Be aware:

  • Every time you change between Internal and External memory, it will take some time for the K4 to exchange all of its patch names with the E1.

New in V4.0 and V5.0

  • Multi page added, with save
  • Output page added, with save
  • It is now possible to visualize and control a Multi and the Output settings . You can also save these from the E1.
  • Upon start, and everytime you change between Internal and External mode, the E1 will request the names of all individual patches.

image
image484×296 11.6 KB

2 Likes
39

I have been playing with V5 all day, and it works great. Thank you!

V5 has an issue with MIDI loopback through my sequencer that caused crashes. V4 did not cause this problem, and still works fine. But that is not your fault, and with the loop removed, V5 is good.

Both the Multi section patch name display and the auto-dismissal of the ‘DATA DUMP COMPLETED’ message when selecting singles and multis, make a big improvement to the workflow. Much appreciated.

The output page gives a very useful visual overview of Output submixes. This was sorely lacking on the front panel. It is also nice to have left and right panning the correct way round, which the front panel value inexplicably reverses with +7 for hard-left and -7 for hard-right.

I did find a few bugs/possible issues:

The editor output page does not appear to make adjustments that are immediately audible. The K4r needs the output patch saved and the single/multi reloaded before the sound changes to reflect the output edits.
As an example, editing the submix panning with the K4r front panel controls give an immediate change in the sound.
Editing with the controller, the parameter value changes on the K4r. But the sound does not change until output patch is saved and the single/multi reloaded with the performance/multi page ‘SELECT’ button.

There is a bug where, if the GO TO OUTPUT button on the performance page is used, on returning to the performance page the OUTPUT, OVERALL VOLUME and SUBMIX CH. all have incorrect values. Recalling the patch with the SELECT button will restore the correct values.
For example:
Select SIA-6 FolkGuitar.
Performance page output values are:
Output - 1
Overall Volume - 72
Submix Ch. - A
Press the ‘GO TO OUTPUT’ button.
Make no edits, but return to the performance page.
The output values have changed to:
Output - 5
Overall Volume - 0
Submix Ch. - E
Pressing ‘SELECT’ restores the correct values.

The GO TO PATCH button memory location behavior described in my previous post, is still there. The easiest way to deal with it is to dismiss the DATA Dump message with the Single button, and then press SELECT on the Performance page to go to the correct patch. This always works. Pressing SELECT two or more times before the Single button is not at all reliable.

The GO TO PATCH button on the Output page may be a liability if someone is editing a Single patch and presses it, not knowing that it will change the patch. All their edits would get replaced by the Multi selected-section patch values, and with no apparent way to recover them.
This could happen if someone is on the performance page, presses the ‘GO TO OUTPUT’ button. Then on the Output page, presses ‘GO TO PATCH’ thinking that it simply returns them to the Performance page, or another Single edit page.
It may be safer to have the GO TO PATCH button only on the Multi page.

1 Like
40

Hi @Red_Hector

greetings from Bruges.
thanks for all your testing, it is really helpful.

I’ve made a test version V5 TEST. If this goes alright , I’ll replace V5 with it.

https://app.electra.one/preset/GSHsrJbbbdD1BMsmQ41l

The editor output page does not appear to make adjustments that are immediately audible. The K4r needs the output patch saved and the single/multi reloaded before the sound changes to reflect the output edits

=> I know, but I don’t find a solution. My preset does update the output memory buffer in the K4R and the K4R responds with accepting the change, but it doesn’t seem to have any effect. So it must be something with the way Kawai works internally with incoming MIDI. How do you fare if you try the same on your K4 ?

By the way: changing the base MIDI channel from 11 to something else is quite straightforward: just change the base channel of the device in the editor before uploading the preset into the E1.

The GO TO PATCH button on the Output page may be a liability if someone is editing a Single patch and presses it, not knowing that it will change the patch.

I’ve implemented a change now in the parsing, and added a byte to the header, so now an output/effects dump should no longer overwrite the single patch dump. I had to manually shift every single parameter to be parsed in the json though, so I hope not to have introduced any errors. But if that works well, we’ll be able to move between a single patch and the output settings without the need to reload or have each others settings overwritten.

Can you test V5TEST please?

PS : very nice those 2 patches you made

1 Like
41

Hi @moss,
just to inform you, I’m no longer having those crashes in the last versions (V4, V5) I made (Mk2 with 3.6.1)