Software Plugins: Modnetic & Soundtoys

Hi there,
I played around with single page setups on the Electra for some software plugins I like in Ableton.

The first one is Modnetic, a Space Echo like plugin: Link to the preset

The second one is a mix out of three soundtoys plugins - arranged like the Zen Delay: Link to the preset

You can find both presets in the library including the Ableton 11 file (plugins mapped as AU versions on mac).

The following extra mapping step is now obsolete - thanks technobear. I updated the ableton project file with native mappings…

The hardest part was to get the CCs mapped flexible in Ableton. I use 8 CC Mapper at the moment, but it is not optimal because I cannot resave the default values of every mapped CC… Maybe another m4l mapper is better or Clyphx Pro will finally work with Live11.

what are you using 8 CC mapper for?

I usually just map directly to automation controls.
what benefits does 8 CC mapper bring? sounds like alot of extra work…

Hej technobear,
you are right! I thought the midi bindings do not work when moving the plugin to other tracks in the project. Just checked and will map directly and safe that project file…

I still have another issue with mapping via ableton that did not happen via the 8 CC Mapper.

When I have the long lists like the following for the Beat Selection, it will only work (without jumping forth and back) when using 14bits and LBS first:

But when I want to set the parameter number in Ableton via midi learn, I have to set MSB first to set the right MIDI CC number and then switch back to LSB for the precise control.

I now realized what got me thinking that I cannot use the native Ableton bindings:
When you copy&paste devices, the MIDI bindings are lost… With the mapper that still worked.

If you drag and drop devices in Ableton to another track, the MIDI bindings are preserved.

it has to be that way - no?

if you copy n’ paste a device, then now you would have two independent devices mapped to the same control surface - which would not be very useful (most of the time)

thats why drag n’ drop can work, you still only have one instance of the device, your just moving it.

why use a list with 14bit CC?
you can have up to 128 items in a single list… with 7 bit cc.

and frankly, I dont think having > 128 items in a list would be very usable :slight_smile:

Id also avoid using 14 bit CC for anything other than you need high resolution for…

14bit CC,

  • use TWO CC numbers (*) , so if you make everything 14 bit, you are limited to 32 parameters (per midi channel) (standard says 0…31 can be used for 14 bit cc)

  • is twice as much data to be transmitted and processed.

( * ) to be clear, for any not familar with 14 bit CC,
the parameter number you see is just the MSB (coarse) CC number, it also uses parameter number + 32, for the LSB (fine)

I don’t know why it happens, but when I use these list items in normal 7bit mode and map it to a select a menu of the AU, the selection jumps multiple times back to the first item of the list while going through all items. When I use the 14bit mode LBS it just works right.

Maybe it’s a problem with the feedback via Ableton from the AU/VST to the Electra when the new item is selected?
The item values are always spread between 0 and 127…

Besides the menus I don’t use 14bit precision anywhere.

Ha, I just checked and I get the jumping behavior in lists only with AU plugins. VST and VST3 work… for Soundtoys and Modnetic.

but why are you using 14 bit for the menus?
that menu above, only has 8 values , and is represented by 7 bit

That’s right… I meant the cut&paste action in Ableton - wrote the wrong term. Thank you for all your explanations today!

Yes, it was a workaround to get rid of the jumping behaviour in lists of AU plugins when selecting a 7 bit item… Seems to be a problem with AU plugins only.

Okay, I investigated a little bit more in my issue with selecting menu items of plugins and devices in Ableton 11. The problem seems to be the midi communication from ableton back to the Electra…

When I select an item via the Electra, Ableton sends also a midi cc value back - hence the jumping back and forward.

Here the values I send for the Auto Filter Type:

That’s the device:

And here are the messages in Midi Pipe - I just go upwards in the list but the values jump back a lot to the second item (31):

If I switch off the MIDI remote out in the Ableton settings, the problem is gone but also the feedback to the Electra.

@thetechnobear @martin Any chance to get this problem fixed? Is it on Abletons side? Are there other variables I have to check? With AU plugins I have the same issue. With VST plugins the issue comes up some times…

Thanks for your help!

P.S.: Switching the item list to 14bit LSB first works with this issue in Ableton

I tested this with Live 11, and it works perfectly…
however, you are using the wrong midi values

you need

if you want bi-directional midi to work properly, you need to make sure that both sides agree on the values.
so the way to do this, is to use a midi monitor , and see what values the other side (in this case Live) sends.

btw: probably better to report bugs/isues in “Bug Reports”


technobear, thanks again for your help+stamina :slight_smile:
I thought the values don’t have to be exact - just in the right ballpark. But that could be the problem with Abletons feedback than…

And I was not shure if this is a bug… will open an issue there if it still remains a problem.


Just got the Midi Pipe inbetween Ableton and the Electra to get the exact list values and now the problem is gone :smiley:

I think this info is helpful for others in the documetation for Ableton / plugins!

I updated my presets and the Ableton project with the new corrected Midi bindings.