Understanding MIDI mapping soft synths and DAW limitations

General discussion
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I’m very interested in using the Electra One for software synths and I’m trying to get some clarification on my perceived limitations with MIDI mapping:

If I’m understanding how MIDI mapping works in the E1 with a plugin, there is currently no way to use any of the E1 templates out of the box without first manually mapping every knob I want to use. If true, I can handle that.

What I can’t handle is doing it multiple times for the same synth. If I understand Ableton’s limitations, there is no way to save MIDI mappings globally for use on future songs/tracks unless the VST itself has an option to save mappings. If true, does Bitwig handle this use case better?

Remote scripts - It sounds like this might be an option to reuse MIDI mappings in Ableton or Bitwig. If true, are the jhh/moss remote script options a requirement for this functionality? I see a ton of information on how to use these applications for DAW specific features but not so much on using them for simple mappings to 3rd party plugins/soft synths. If this can be done, would Bitwig or Ableton be best for simply controlling soft synths?

Lastly, is there any way to load two or more different E1 synth presets and have the DAW/VST MIDI mappings switch automatically to the correct VST based on what is currently selected in the E1?

Thanks!
0xd

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This is indeed exactly what the remote scripts aim to do and it also works for VSTs

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Thanks for the reply, jhh. When using your remote script option are there any limitations one should be aware of before getting started in regard to mapping many software synths? e.g. hard cap on the number mappings, etc.

Do you know if the script in combination with the E1 can handle swapping between multiple soft synths seamlessly?

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In principle yes, but do read the README carefully, especially GitHub - xot/ElectraOne: Ableton Live MIDI Remote Script for the Electra One

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Live has a limit of 128 parameters per device. Also there can be only one selected (controllable) device. This is for devices managed thru remote scripts.
If you manually midi map, I believe you can map multiple.

Not all plug-ins expose their parameters initially. Here’s how to do that manually: Ableton - expose plug-in parameters. For m4l devices it is a bit more complicated. For that you need to open the device in maxforlive, go to “Parameters” and set the visibility of the parameter you want to "visible and automatable (or something like this) and then store the device. Be careful to not include all parameters as that will spam your undo history.

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This is true. The problem is that live only saves midi mappings in a full song. You simply cannot save a midi mapping per device and recall that later.

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Tbh I never bothered with midi mapping from within Live, instead I always used plugins midi mapping functions. And even that I now only do while traveling (diva, repro, korg legacy collection). At home I either use hardware synths or my Mackie C4 :blush:.
@0xd I believe using @jhh excellent remote script is your best option, especially because with it you get bidirectional control. If you use midi mapping from within a device like diva, control is one way only.

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Thanks for the replies everyone. Does the Bitwig moss remote script function basically the same way? I read somewhere on the forum that switching between plugins was not functional in the current implementation. Can anyone confirm?

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The topic is not so easy to understand but I will try to explain:

  1. Electra One knows nothing about a DAW or a synth be it hardware or software, it simply sends out MIDI messages.
  2. Plugins provide parameters via the respective plugin interface (AU/VST/CLAP/…) which can be used for automation and some DAWs support to control these parameters with an external controller.
  3. Some plugins can also be controlled by plain MIDI commands. This requires that the DAW supports to route this data straight to the plugin.
  4. Bitwig and Ableton support both ways (not sure if Ableton has still this MIDI channel 1 limitation?!). Both of these ways are persistent across all projects.
  5. Additionally, Bitwig/Ableton support to map any parameter to a MIDI command. This is project specific.

I did a video about these things in Bitwig some time ago:

With the latest release of DrivenByMoss you can combine both ways. This is now the unique selling point of the Electra One! See the tutorial video:

Hope this helps!

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Thanks! The Bitwig Device Pages\Allow 9 slots option almost seems like it was made for the E1 layout. How about an allow 12 option, Bitwig? :thinking: I look forward to trying both yours and jhh’s scripts since I’m not really locked into a single DAW …yet.

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there is a third way ,on Ableton . Binding through Clyphx pro accesories :Binding fader or Binding knob :wink: . Since Clyphx is now compatible with ableton 11 . I would love to see emerging things between Clyphx pro and @jhh script .
Also Binding let you take control of parameters without midi mapping . The mapping , when you use Binding or X-control, or G-control ,is done once and for all template etc .

Have a look on all Clyphx video on youtube . There are a lot that can be done with it , midi controllers and Ableton .

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AFAIK clyphx is a remote script

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Exactly.

@Abbes I am curious, which of its’ functions do you use on a regular basis?

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Hello Moss ! Big question :blush:

I use it to build one of the most exciting part of my music template . Morphing between bunch of vst parameters . I use snap on devices and recalls actions thrue G-Controls (G-control have the ability to allow gesture of buttons ). I also morph with macrobat [snap].

I use a stream deck to store multiple snaps corresponding to multiple sound from a vsti (for exemple) thanks to another brilliant guy . Trevlinga ( https://trevligaspel.se ) .He made an incredible midi plugin for the Streamdeck.
I then use a custom E1 project to morph between thoses values . The streamdeck is then also connected to the Clyphx script .
I always dreamed of making such a thing . And Ableton integrated this … but so poorly regarding my point of view . because of 2 points :

The first is that When you use macro on a VST it takes the full and exclusive control of the VST parameters regarding live .
And worst , it’s only on a one way communication . Ableton took control but if you change the VST preset or parameter in the VST itself, Ableton does not reflect the state of the parameter on the macro . Ableton does not update nor read the state of the VST parameter anymore once you choose to map it with a macro rack control (contrary to Bitwig racks) .
The second is that Ableton rack macro, controls only 16 parameters maximum .

I understand thoses choices , but it’s totaly limited for me and what i want to do .
Clyphx does not have this limitations . And so mutch more .

Binding lets, with few midi CC bind and rebing it to whatever you want to control on Ableton. And you can use you binding cross the template !! ) .
Then, when you made a binding mapping for a plugin you can use it on another project to,
Even if the other project have nothing to do with the other one .
And if you want to make your binding evolve…it evolves on all projects…
Ableton have a great midi integration but so less versatility .
Yes you can share a midi mapping thrue different project …if you save you project as a template and want to make another project by loading this template…but if you have multiple project and want to update your mapping ,you have to update it on ALL project…manually

There is so mutch thing that Stray thought about and integrated in the phylosophy of Clyphx to add lots of versatility and Functions to Ableton . It’s a shame that Ableton didn’t lean more from him on their collaboration . I Don’t know if Stray still work with them but i really hope Ableton open their mind on this part . I ask Ableton about this “exclusive” binding the only answer is it’s like this and it will not change…ok .Sad that i could not be an option.

hopefully i use Clyphx to do that . I also created with the help of Stray a user script to make possible to creates banks of snap with few CC.

I stopped to work on it (and the music) since mid january, as i also have other things to do than music unfortunatly ( :disappointed_relieved::joy: ). I will continue to work on it on April until end of July .
The E1 is an incredible controller . More advanced than any other in my knowledge . Martin did a fantastic tool ,and do an incredible work ! His conception is easy to use and can be adapted to our own knowledge and use . I will wait for the MKII and it’s soooooooooooo coool !

And peoples like you ,Jhh,and all this community ! I already saw what you did ! That’s so cool ! Thanks !
And Moss . Your work on Bitwig ! You don’t know but it’s your work on controllers (and for me push 2) that convinced me to try and use bitwig . But Ableton and Clyphx …wow …and with the E1 and Streamdeck…wowowow… :star_struck:
Have a nice Evening !

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Thanks for the info.

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